A Poem Dedicated to the last 150 years of this planet.
April 10, 2008 — lifeinmotionBy a Silent, Silent Chinese.
When we were called the Sick Man of Asia, we were the Yellow Peril.
When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are a threat.
When we closed our doors, you smuggled drugs to our markets.
When we embraced Free Trade, you blame us for taking away your jobs.
When we were falling apart, you marched in your troops and wanted your “fair share”.
When we were putting the broken pieces together again, “Free Tibet” you scream, “it was an invasion!”
So, we tried communism, you hated us for being communists
When we embraced capitalism, you hate us for being capitalists.
When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.
When we tried limiting our numbers, you said it is human rights abuse.
When we were poor, you thought we were dogs.
When we loan you cash, you blame us for your debts.
When we build our industries, you called us polluters.
When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.
When we buy oil, you call that exploitation and genocide.
When you fight for oil, you call that liberation and democracy.
When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you wanted rule of law for us.
When we uphold law and order against violence, you call that violating human rights.
When we were silent, you said you want us to have free speech.
When we were silent no more, you say we are brainwashed racists.
Why do you hate us so much? We asked.
“No,” you answered, “We don’t hate You.”
We don’t hate you either,
But do you understand us?
“Of course we do,” You said,
“We have NBC, CNN and BBCs…”
What do you really want from us?
Think hard first, then answer…
Because you only get so many chances,
Enough is enough, enough Hypocrisy for this one world.
We want one world, one dream, and peace on Earth.
This big blue Earth is big enough for all of Us.
April 23, 2008 at 6:44 am
Right.
But I don’t see:
-the free speech, when Chinese journalists are condemned for telling the truth
- when you buy oil, you forget what you cause in Darfur
-when you sell weapons, look what can happen in Zimbabwe
- you don’t have BBC, you only have the state TV which blacks out when the truth is told
- killing Tibetans is not “putting pieces together”, because you did not listen to what they want.
- no mention of the keyword “democracy” whatsoever.
The fact that you don’t know the real fact about ethnicities in your country proves, unfortunately, the brainwashing you were subject to. Why do other people have to agree with what you say? It’s so natural in a non-totalitarian system to have your own opinion…
You can talk again about this after the next FREE elections in your country.
April 23, 2008 at 9:16 am
I can flip this back to you
In the West:
-Suspected “enemy combatants” are imprisoned and tortured in Guantanamo Bay.
-Iraqi prisoners are tortured by British and American forces
-The PATRIOT ACT restricts civil liberties and Bush has allowed for “Free Speech Zones” to restrict public protests
- Instead of buying oil, you invade Iraq under the name of Democracy and turn a blind eye to all of the problems you have caused Iraq and the region since 2003
-When you sold weapons, you sold them to Bin Laden in th 1980s, to non-democracies who paid lip service to being non-Communists and to factions who overthrew democratic governments
-BBC is a state controlled network, dumbass. This point is moot
-Allowing the British to dismember China by carving up Hong Kong, and trying to turn Tibet in to a British protectorate.
The fact that you’re promoting Sinophobic myths and not getting the message of this post shows how pathetic you are.
“When we were silent, you said you want us to have free speech.
When we were silent no more, you say we are brainwashed racists.”
Can you read? If you bark about a “Free Tibet” how about granting independence to Gibraltar, Northern Ireland, Jersey, Sark, Guernsey, and even Scotland? Double-standards don’t apply in this day and age and the Western powers are no angels either.
April 26, 2008 at 7:47 pm
When we uphold law and order against violence, you call that violating human rights. (killing Tibetans is not “putting pieces together”, ) if you talk 3.14 riot
(because you did not listen to what they want. ) but The small number of Tibetans-in-exile has no right to claim anything.
can you see that? what a simpl man!!!!
April 29, 2008 at 3:15 am
Tibet is to China as Louisiana is to the US. Were we correct to treat our own people like “refugees” following Katrina? Who are we to criticize others if our history is based on conquering the “American Indians” by genocide, enslaving the Africans, and nuking the Japanese (used only twice in history, both times by the US)? Who are we to send our warships to the Strait of Taiwan to ensure a divided China? Stationing 35,000 troops in South Korea to fight a Cold War? Why are we still in Iraq? Is this how we keep America from falling apart? We constantly need a common enemy? I don’t see China agitating American domestic affairs by poking at our sensitive history and injustices.
Yes, China has its problems. But we need to first mind our own business and do some good rather than start judging others. Moral leadership is not from having might, but from being and practicing right. What are we now… the world’s judge? Isn’t being the world’s police enough in draining our treasury? My freaking tax dollars are going into developing more powerful weapons to kill Middle Eastern civilians we generically labeled as terrorists. What about my social security retirement? My health care? My kids’ future? Why do we let the corporations decide on quitting the Kyoto protocol? Why are we still the number one polluter of CO2? We should spend our energies on answering these questions and solving these problems in order to once more become the envy of the world and earn the moral leadership of all nations.
As for the poisons in the pet foods, toothpastes, and toys, damn global capitalism and its greed. The problem is not China, but the corporations, who now not only control America through its ubiquitous use of corn syrup and trans fats (that happen to be more toxic than some poisons) but also China, who has embraced capitalism too. We need a stronger government of the people, by the people, and for the people. China has its own system, but I find that we are slowly losing ours. Who do we really owe the bulk of our national debt to? Not the Chinese, but to the international bankers, who have made debt slaves of us all.
April 29, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Cowboy - I am glad you’re one of the few who sees the big picture. It’s better to work with and influence than antangonise those who are different
April 29, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Nice work. much truth in it. I think the chinese don’t really understand the tibetian situation but I’m really glad the Chinese are to meet representatives, wise decision. China will not be stopped.
April 29, 2008 at 8:29 pm
If nations could rise like mountains out of the sea,
Being born like gods and living as long as gods,
Pure from the earth’s fire and drinking the morning sun,
Drinking the night sky, emptying the cup of the moon–
If a nation’s truth could last as long as a stone,
Bearing witness to all seasons, all storms,
Surely even then we would wear it down,
Surely we are the rain that falls.
April 29, 2008 at 8:43 pm
The big picture is that we are all human beings. No one race should pretend to act superior. The West is a relatively young civilization with its wonderful ideologies founded on basic premises of equality and inalienable rights. Many years of nasty, brutish human suffering lead to this balance of individual freedom and centralized governmental control. But ours was an evolution of experiences unique to the development of the West as we know of today. What I have found is that we should not view other civilizations, more ancient civilizations through the lens of our own history and philosophies. Doing so is not different from calling Native Americans “Indians”. It just shows how unsophisticated we are. In some ways, we are still doing the same incorrect mapping of what we see in others to our understanding of reality. Maybe it is time to see reality from the perspective of the other. And I think the Olympics in Beijing this year will allow us this rare opportunity. As the only remaining world superpower we should grow out of our adolescent hubris and embrace all human experiences and histories as our collective experience. The Internet, invented by America is doing just that. Long live Pax Americana!
April 29, 2008 at 11:20 pm
It’s great chat here. I like the peom. lifeinmotion and Cowboy are great people. It is simple truth. As a part of China, Tibet is getting much better. Tomorrow Tibet will be better than today.
April 29, 2008 at 11:51 pm
The West will never understand the world so long as they refuse to understand the Non-western world, that makes up three-quarters of our Earth
April 30, 2008 at 1:02 am
Great great work! Now it’s on New York Times…
April 30, 2008 at 9:23 am
So what is the URL to the NYT blog or article?
May 1, 2008 at 12:09 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/education/29student.html?_r=1&ref=education&oref=slogin
May 1, 2008 at 2:17 am
Arrogance is almost always the fatal flaw of great nations. And willful ignorance of human history will help history repeat its many tragedies. What saddens this Westerner is that the world is still so divided along lines of geo-political nationalisms and dumb passports.
The irony is that the world is indeed becoming more united, but for the wrong reasons. Globalization has put the wealth of the world into the hands of only a few, who now control democracies through unlimited debts and corn-syrup laced diets. Wars are being created to protect this control.
Western kids voluntarily sacrifice their lives in hopes of earning money for college, just so we can later find jobs and work for these global companies, earning money and being taxed to pay off the national debt. The myopia of the West has enslaved itself in this vicious cycle. How about the alternative? Communism and its utopian ideals fail to meet human nature. Socialism dampens entrepreneurship and kills individual merits. South America is seeking utopia and gaining mass rule around a cult of personality.
And government by “reincarnation”?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jexrkriu934
LOL! What a freaking awesome idea. The thin air in the Himalayas must have created a rare breed of psychotic fanatics.
But the point is the West is slowly losing its freedoms not by force, but by fear. One can no longer fly on a plane without having to be reminded of terrorism. Take off the shoes, dispose of that water bottle, carry a passport with a radio frequency ID, etc… As long as we get our corn-syrup and trans fat, we are OK with these minor inconveniences. But before we know it, the message has been seared into our habits and we have been trained like Pavlov’s dogs. Obedience to authority is what corporate bosses need in order to perpetuate global domination. We have become very obedient, even to the point of being trained to believe that we must fight wars against an externally controlled state of mind: terror. Our behaviors are likewise controlled. We will vote to give up our freedoms so we can feel more secure.
If the Patriot Act were passed by Congress during America’s Revolutionary Wars, George Washington would have been labeled a terrorist for his unconventional methods of fighting. I have my suspicions as to where the Patriot Act came from and I doubt it originated from my government or my people. I also don’t think my President and his posse has the wits to come up with such a scheme. Just listen to George Bush and you will see what I mean. As for the big Dick Cheney, his frustrations may be just impotence and misdirected testosterone. Our government may be just a superficial hand of the global corporate greed that has since exploited weaker nations and squandered natural resources, bringing our planet to the brink of climate catastrophe. This was the same beast that grew poppies in Afghanistan and sold opium to China 150 years ago. The West is really being jerked off by the invisible hand while other countries are being fucked.
As for China, the world must open its eyes and see the good and the bad, the challenges and triumphs, the history and the humanity that China will put on display this Summer. No civilization can last 5000 years if there is nothing right about what it does. So, lifeinmotion, I understand your poem. I also understand that there are larger forces at play here and not just national pride. Maybe we just need to self-reflect more and understand human nature better. Perhaps then, we will be able to truly see eye-to-eye.
May 1, 2008 at 10:05 am
Cowboy - I did not write this poem. It was anonymously posted on a Chinese language forum. I merely corrected the grammar and spelling it for the English-speaking world to understand the message
May 1, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Can’t disagree with the poem. Can’t agree with it either. But it made a nice piece provided taht we stop looking at the nuances.
* * *
But My biggest problem with China is lack of power for the dissent. I don’t agree with the Carrefour boycott of late, but at least let it happen. let it unfold. Instead, the government sabotaged the people’s voice (source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/02/world/asia/02china.html).
What I saw in America worth replicating elsewhere is freedom to criticize the government. Katrina is the black eye and the media wailed against the Bush administration for it. Iraq is the ongoing black eye and the we demonstrated so in big cities. But you don’t see the U.S. state police swoop down and arrest for speaking out against the government.
China buys oil, U.S. buys oil, but can’t say two wrong makes it right. Look around closer and you will see how many Americans are desperately trying to break out from the oil habit. I can’t say that ALL Americans are behind that mission, but you don’t see Americans pretend ALL are behind one voice or another.
Even on 9/11, 2001, the diversity of our voice is HUGE. We had people condemning the terrorists. We had people criticize the government for letting it happened. We had idiots wrote in newspapers believing that the CIA planned the whole thing. No pretension of one One Country One Voice here. But no arrest either.
China has wealth, population, and all of the makings of a First World Country. But if you wonder why the First Worlders don’t respect China, it has to do with the way you treat Tibet. And it is a big mistake to pair Tibet with New Orleans. Do you know how much money Americans around th country poured as private donations? We had volunteers rushing from all over the country like bees to honey. My ex-boyfriend all the way from Hawaii with his friend, to the place he never been before, out of compassion.
Perhaps that’s what was missing in the Tibet talks. If China and Tibet are truly one, why Tibet wanted to break free? You don’t see Louisianna wants to break free from the U.S. even after Katrina.
And before you start screaming racist feelings toward China, and that the West tries to pin down the East, what do you make of Japan and South Korea protesting against China as the torch passed? And aside from history, what else do you think Japan and SK had in common?
Guess: The right to dissent.
In fact, democracy is not about the right to vote. That’s easy. Fake ballots and one-party government can still enforce dictatorship.
It’s the right to conduct protest and be heard, not just online and in places where the Internet Police can’t bite, its offline, in the flesh and in front of the mayor’s hall or governor’s home.
Think about it.
May 2, 2008 at 12:30 am
[...] A Poem Dedicated to the last 150 years of this planet. ‽ Life In Motion Poem by “silent, silent Chinese” about frustration with Western perceptions of China: “When we were silent, you said you want us to have free speech. When we were silent no more, you say we are brainwashed racists.” (tags: china freespeech bridgeblogging poetry) [...]
May 2, 2008 at 3:15 am
I cherish my unalienable right to speak my mind and write whatever I feel. Otherwise, I don’t think I would be so critical of my own country’s imperfections. I don’t think I can stick my head out so much if my head is going to immediately get cut off. The right to dissent is the most important Constitutional right as implied our in our First Amendment, our Bill of Rights. This right allows us to self-reflect as a society and propose solutions without fear of being taken away for subversion by the secret police in the darkness of night. I am also grateful that I have the economic leisure to sit back, on a full stomach, and reflect on what’s going on in the world and be critical of everything so as to make our world a better place to live for our kids.
New Orleans to Tibet was an analogy, a figurative comparison. I hope no one would take it literally. There are just too many differences between the two to make this a reasonable one-to-one match. My point there is to illustrate that not all of our Constitutional rights are being implemented and defended by our government; that “all men are created equal.” New Orleans showed that not all Americans are equal. At least not all Americans were treated equally.
Had a massive flood happened in Long Island, I think the “refugees” of Long Island would have received more than just a tremendous outpouring of generosities from people around the country. I believe our government would have responded with more urgency and consideration. Most people of this generation, who grew up after the Civil Rights movement, grew up with ethical views about race in their hearts. I do not doubt the goodness in our people. However, our system of government has yet to fully come to terms with our history of slavery and segregation before it acts as the moral judge and police of the world. It just makes us appear so hypocritical. What we have now is not very different from slavery and segregation.
Look at our nation’s prisons. Do you know that we are only 5% of the world’s population, but have 25% of the world’s incarcerations?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html
Trial by jury is a wonderful idea. Jurors are screened by the prosecution and the defendant and the laws are applied according the power vested in our judges. The jury is empowered to evaluate the validity of the facts and the defendant is always innocent unless proven guilty. This system seems very fair until you look at the results. Consider the demographics of our prisons. More minorities are incarcerated (percentage wise) than the ruling American class. More judges are of the ruling class than not. Power in government and more importantly in corporations is still in the hands of the ruling class. Congressional seats do not reflect racial proportions in our population.
Big corporate bosses almost always get off the hook when they get caught. Occasionally, there will be a poster-child CEO who gets put away for decades (but who later gets early parole for good behavior when no one cares about the case anymore. American Idol, Fox News, and CNN are more interesting to the average Joe. Who really watches C-SPAN for entertainment?) I guess, what it amounts to is, if you are obedient and behave well, and you have been “re-educated” by our corrections system, you may return back into our society. But good luck finding a decent job. The alternative to subordination and disobedience is that you will remain behind bars until you behave the way we, our laws want you to behave. Sounds familiar?
What makes our system cruel is its asymmetric application of the laws. Or maybe the laws are asymmetric to begin with. Access to opportunities and resources are also asymmetric. Affirmative action only shifts this asymmetry to other minorities in order to pacify the historic victims, while the ruling class remains in its commanding heights.
But who to defend the laws better than the Supreme Court? Or was it our Supreme Court that interpreted the Constitution as ensuring all citizens “separate but equal” treatments? To the world, it may appear “if you can’t enslave them anymore, let’s create laws to lock them up.” This also applies to Native Americans. Recovery from conquest and genocide typically does not happen in one generation. Also, look at our nation’s armed forces demographics (the low ranks). Casualties are also asymmetric. Maybe equality does not mean symmetry, but asymmetry certainly appears unequal.
But let’s go back to the premise that Tibet wants independence. Are we endorsing “separate but equal” for China???? I think Tibet would not dare to consider independence if Tibet were part of Texas, especially with the knowledge that the state police may storm their religious compounds at any time like the way they stormed the Mormon church. Label them as perverted child-molesting polygamists and we can take away their women and kids. Can the male religious and spiritual members of that Mormon church ever get a fair trial when the entire American jury pool has been contaminated with news about their sexual practices? Our Puritanical roots demand swift punishment. Justice is blind, but loves to hear a good sex story. I wonder why all the Greek statues were naked. Yet we are a country that created Viagra and a country with 50% divorce rate. We are a sexually frustrated society. We need Big Brother to protect and watch our pre-pubescent girls and boys from sexual predators. With all this confusion, one may just want to change religion and become a Catholic priest.
But back to Tibet. When was the last time a state succeeded from our union? 150 years ago, in America, I don’t remember the North was too happy about the South wanting independence. Not many school children know, but Abraham Lincoln never wanted to emancipate the slaves until it became a strategic necessity. His Emancipation Proclamation was brilliant because it was for the slaves of the Confederacy, a land beyond his jurisdiction. How clever to use remote control. Let’s “emancipate” the Tibetans in China. History has Lincoln as the Great Emancipator. I wonder who writes history. Must be the winners. So it is important to win wars. We must be in it until we win. Sounds like McCain? You see, real politics is complicated. Much of it has to do with strategic resources and its scarcity.
Now, if the North could force the South, which to this day still gripes about the defeat, (talk to the Red Necks of Appalachia and the KKK), into giving up its inhuman ways, who are we to criticize the domestic affairs of other countries? United Kingdom, being the sole superpower at that time, in the midst of its Industrial Revolution, did not favor the North. It needed cotton from the South, so it went where their economy took them. The ethics of politics is again inextricably pinned to resources and its scarcity. I am glad that my stomach is still full.
Yes, China’s control on dissent does not meet Western standards. That is like saying the patient is sick by just examining his skin color. We need to look at the entire patient to see if the patient is healthy and functional or not. Although this patient has been surviving for the last 5000 years, let’s assume we don’t care much for understanding its history and its integral relationship with Tibet. For example, what if the tables were turned? Hypothetically, what if China exports 75% of its people to America, making America the most populous country in the world leaving China with a population of what America has right now. For one, we will not have enough corn to make corn syrup as all of our corn will be eaten. Sorry if you cannot live without Mountain Dew. We will also be starving to annex other lands in a ravage new wave of Manifest Destiny lead by the torch of Lady Liberty (scorched earth). We are “liberating” Iraq right now with the blood of our boys and girls in uniform!
I don’t believe one planet is enough if America quadruples its population. We know from past experience and from our relatively brief history as a country, that we will wage war. We have used nuclear weapons before and I doubt it would be difficult for us to use it again. Gen. MacArthur was trigger happy with his nukes against Mao’s army, but Truman got the better of him. Despite being in the Korean War, America was not in a crisis. In a crisis, the hawks almost always win. Pearl Harbor was a crisis. Look what happened to Japan. Yes, using nukes was not so simply explained and the situation there was more complicated. The fact is nukes were used for the first time in human history against a population for strategic reasons.
It is our national security to secure resources for the survival of the American way of life. It has always been the case since Jefferson sent Lewis and Clark out to explore Native American land. Now this may sound fictional and imaginary. Maybe it is. But is it too hard to imagine the measures that we will need to preserve the American way of life multiplied by four and the effects this will produce on humanity and on our planet?
Continuing on this hypothetical change in US population, the path to preserve peace and to preserve our planet from climate catastrophe may involve the suspension of certain Constitutional rights. Look how easily we surrendered our freedoms following 9/11. With 1.3 billion people in America, rights such as “the pursuit of happiness” along with driving two SUVs and an Atkins diet to look slim and sexy will also be usurped. Government of the people, by the people, and for the people may not be a very ethical beast when 1.3 billion voices all cry out for more resources. We are like Romans in a Roman Coliseum, consuming “happiness” like there is no tomorrow at the expense of the world.
This leviathan is no Rome though. It is larger and more dangerous. It will gasp for new resources and kill to survive. The problem becomes not that of freedom to speak and dissent, but freedom from hunger and famine, freedom from having to breathe heavily polluted air and drink heavily polluted water. Revolution, the extreme form of dissent comes to those who cannot feed their people.
I am not worried about China, as it has weathered many cycles of revolutions in its long history. I also don’t think the Chinese people are stupid. Look at their achievements in our educational system. (Some may argue that Chinese students are automatons, collectively brainwashed to study for the sake of earning high grades. Some may claim that it is just blind obedience to authority that earns them high grades. Others argue that they are good with rote memorization. But no one can deny that it is hard work and sheer diligence coupled with national pride that makes them successful.) I was not surprised to find so many PhD students in our universities who are Chinese. What they are selling to us in Dollar stores we are selling back to them the seeds for the middle class, the fundamental requirement for a functional democracy. Education is also not cheap and we should consider twice before we complain about their RMB being pegged to the Dollar. America is in its golden age of technological innovations fueled by brilliant minds in our universities. China is directly subsidizing the salaries of our educators by being so willing to adopt change. If America was slow in changing its Jim Crow system, why do we spend our energies to pressure a 5000-year civilization to change even faster? In due time, with the Internet, which has unified the world in one common language and one common culture, and with the multitude of highly educated Chinese graduates who are returning to China, change will inevitably come. (If the Chinese government blocks the Internet to control dissent, they will be crazy to allow their Western educated scholars to re-enter their borders.)
What I hope to see in my lifetime is a world united by a common respect for each other as humans. Nationalism replaced by humanism. Our common threat is not capitalism, which is actually the engine of prosperity and my full stomach, but mindless economic globalization fueled by human greed. Find a way to put greed to work without destroying the planet and we will not need a leviathan to protect us from living nasty, brutish and short lives ever again. Then everyone can enjoy literal American freedom as conceived by our enlightened forefathers.
May 2, 2008 at 5:30 am
great poem. so true. you are right cowboy. double standards will always be there because people refuse to see the other side.
May 2, 2008 at 11:38 am
Silent, Silent Chinese is not necessarily a silenced Chinese. Humanity has always found ways to communicate dissent despite government’s best attempts at censorships. Information about events in the past that involved burning of books, inquisition, and the selective murder by burning at the stake was never completely eliminated. Nothing can be completely eliminated. The best cover up will leak. The most carefully planned crime will eventually be uncovered by newer technologies and forensic science.
Let history be the judge. In the meantime, let’s see what China has to display this Summer. Grabbing torches from athletes is not protest and dissent. Just because I do not agree with the War in Iraq, I do not go and sabotage the equipments of our soldiers. Actively wrestling down a torch bearer gives passive resistance a black eye if we were to ever call that passive resistance.
May 2, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Cowboy, you and I, not surprisingly, see eye to eye on many issues’ theories. But our differences are in the applications.
I appreciate your candor in your argument. So let’s dish them out. Also, I apologize for writing books here.
I will rebut Cowboy’s mis-perception of history and U.S. laws at the bottom of this comment. But here are my ideas to advance this conversation.
So let me ask you, Cowboy, why don’t you want to hold China to a First World country’s standard? It certainly has all of the makings of a First Worlder. Chinese practically bragged that the 2008 Olympics will be their coming-out party as a high-minded global citizen. Why are they getting a free ticket to the global stage? Every First World country history I’ve read, had to go through the process. South Korea was not consider one until they had free elections in the 1990s. England, the persecution of Catholics in the Irish north. Germany, the fight to curb anti-Jews sects. Australia on the aboriginal natives. So why not China and Tibet?
There are answers to the Tibet question. Talking to the Dalai Lama is one, which up until now, there was not an honest dialog. I think the pressure the First World countries placed on China this year is amazing. We must hold the Chinese accountable for some basic decency level. I am not proud of my American home. But I am deeply ashame of my Chinese home. Wait, is that unpatriotic for me to call my birth home a bad place to live? Will I be jailed once I revisit my grandma?
So China has shopping malls bigger than most. But why do you think First World Countries still not accept the Arab Emerate countries as one of them even with all of the wealth, landscape, and influence?
My contention: China wants to be like the West, does it not? Why else do you plan big sky scrappers, through hiring Western architects? Why else do you compete for the Olympics, by God!, a Western ritual? Why airplanes? Why Shopping malls? Why Internet? These are the Western ideals and devices.
China is trying to have it both ways. It criticized the First World through the words of Mao Zhe-Dong for decades. Them imperialists and evil capitalists. But golly, China is capitalist. Forget the fact that the U.S. and the rest are hostile to Beijing, what would Mao say?
* * *
Going back to point-counterpoint with Cowboy:
First, the question of Mormonism. It goes without saying that ht elaw of Texas strictly forbade polygamy. You can argue freedom of religion (FoR) and it would be a very strong argument but what about the equal protection clause, which states that we must protect everyone, regardless of status. In the case of the Mormon sect, the consideration falls on helping the children. Charges will be brought, I think, on the statutory rapes.
But if you bring Tibet to Texas, they would have one heck of a time. Tibet is reclusive, anti-technology to a certain point, like our Amish community. Previously, someone posted here that we destroyed the Native American community. I understand. History books are big on this massacre. But look at the current situation. Indian countries, as we call them, get full autonomy status. One of such brings to mind is Hong Kong. But for how long will China leave Hong Kong separate but equal? In the U.S., the Indian countries are not to be touched by the State Police unless the countries called out for help— medical or dispute emergencies. On being reclusive, in Texas, there are areas where people live without cell phone connections, TV, or radio. These are remaining cowboy colonies. So yes, Tibet in U.S. is possible.
On Abraham Lincoln, what he did was deeply strategic. But have you read his personal letters? Lincoln was deeply against owning slaves. What you say as strategic, please be careful. At the time, there was not enough political force to ban all slaves. The decision was made to enforce the ban definitely forced the union’s break-up. And if you read the Lincoln-Douglass debate, you see that both sides are deeply anti-slavery.
On rewriting history, let’s be clear, there is enough scholarship on Lincoln, by children of former slaves through oral history and people like Doris Kern Goodwin to give you a very broad view of the Civil War era. It used to be a truth that a black man are 3/5 of a white, not true anymore. The Founding Fathers wrote that, but the Supreme Court overturned it. So what says you about the ability of the Americans to correct itself?
If you want to get deeper, the right to religion, Christian religion, said that it is within their god-given rights to own slaves. The bible called for 7 tribes and blacks belong to the servant tribe. But the Court said to hell with that religious article. You can practice your faith privately, but you cannot exert that faith as a justification on your behavior. Same goes with the Mormon, and would go with Tibet.
On the prison 5 percent, yes I took great interest in that. And I am horrified that the prison system is anything but just. It was designed to keep the worse away but we have pot smokers and prostitutes who harmed no one while breaking the laws. And let’s not get started on the death penalty (DP). But, Cowboy, do you know how we went from an 81 percent pro-DP country to a country with just 5 states approving DP? The right to dissent. The right to take the government to court, case after case, and say, NOT FAIR. That’s gutsy. Try do that in China.
Once again, I apologize for being long-winded up until now, but Cowboy misread a lot of history and laws.
May 2, 2008 at 1:57 pm
[...] I saw your ripostes at lifeinmotion. Well argued. You essentially brought your “Ugly Dragon” thesis over [...]
May 3, 2008 at 12:06 am
When we were the Sick Man of Asia, We were called The Yellow Peril.
When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Biggest Threat.
When we closed our doors, you forced in opium and occupied our land.
When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.
When we were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your concessions.
When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, “Free Tibet” you screamed, “It Was an Invasion!”
When we tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.
When we embrace Capitalism, you berated us for mercantilism .
When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.
When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.
When confederates wanted secession, you waged Civil war.
When slave owners want to rule Tibet again, you pile on money and adulation.
When we were poor, you treated us as dogs.
When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debts.
When we make your products, you call us Polluters.
When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.
When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.
When you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.
When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.
When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it bloody repression.
When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.
When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashed and angry mob.
When we stay out of spotlight, you said we are self-centered and spoiled.
When we express our views, you said it is organized by embassies.
When we support our country, you say it is dangerous nationalism.
When you love your country, you said you are proudly patriotic.
When Tibetans killed and burned in Lhaha, you call it peaceful demonstration.
When blacks rioted for Rodney King beating, you sent in Federal troops and National guard.
When flame attendants ran along, you call them thugs.
When the relays were violently interrupted and the handicapped attacked, you call them freedom fighters.
Why do you hate us so much, we asked.
No, you answered, we don’t hate you.
We don’t hate you either, But, do you understand us and know the facts?
Of course we do, you said, We have AFP, CNN and BBC’s…
What do you really want from us? Think hard first, then answer…
Because you only get so many chances.
Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy , Enough Double Standard, Enough Cryptic Racial Superiority.
We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.
This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.
May 3, 2008 at 3:03 am
It seems like every other ethnic Chinese is making their version of the poem…
May 3, 2008 at 4:53 am
Since when did cowboys become so complicated?
May 3, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Landshark, since when? Since one of us took over the Oval Office. LOL.
Nightingale, you’re awesome. I love America too and there is nowhere I would rather want to live more than here in the “Land of the Free”. Whether or not we see history in the same light depends on our unique biographies. Reasonable people do disagree and I would never say that you are wrong or insist that I am right.
As for the population hypothetical, I have yet to hear your input. By looking at American history and connecting the dots, I find America to be more dangerous than China if America were to swap populations with China.
I have learned from the Chinese the concept of respect. America’s culture of irreverence puts emphasis on the young and the new. China pays deference to the old and the wise. Maybe this is where our two civilizations are most different. Visit China again, practice the Mandarin language, talk to your elders, and ask Chinese nationals this simple question, “What is more important: freedom from oppression or freedom from starvation?” I’m no Patrick Henry, but what is liberty if you are famished? Oppression kills your behavior. Famine kills you. Oppression is human nature. Famine is Mother Nature. The enemy of humanity is still taming the elements, controlling disease, prolonging survival, and ensuring that we have a livable planet. Strong governments are sometimes useful in protecting its people from internal disintegration and disorder.
Is having a strong government, therefore, the answer to every country? I don’t think so. In a country with a large, well-educated middle-class population, who can pretty much govern themselves and keep a full stomach, a democratic republic will do the most good for the most people.
Let’s look at China. After generations of draining silver from the Chinese economy in the form of silver for opium, populations of Chinese people were left impoverished, addicted to narcotics, and suffered many cycles of colossal famine and domestic warfare. This was before they had nuclear weapons. I have yet to see what happens to a nuclear power, controlled by a people high on opium, when it experiences colossal famine and domestic warfare followed by foreign invasions. Maybe China’s fall in the last century was due to it’s arrogance as THE Middle Kingdom, but I don’t recall the West was ever at peace with China when China wanted to close the ports to stop the flow of drugs into their country. When did we return Hong Kong?
If China breaks up today, some will undoubtedly be happy. But this cowboy would be shaking in his boots. For one, I do not want a nuclear power controlled by extreme nationalism. China is already so close to meeting Western standards: a growing middle class, a growing population of educated scholars, and local experimentations with democracy. Destabilizing China will destabilize the world.
Is pressure from the West good for China? Yes, if it works. But pressure has done more resentment and damage than good. Punishment may yield immediate but very unpredictable consequences. Try putting pressure on ordinary people you know and see how they respond. Pressure from the West has instead stirred up nationalistic feelings. Is this what the West wants?
Nationalism should be a thing of the last century. Look at the results of nationalism in the Twentieth Century: Imperial Japan, Fascist Germany, Fascist Italy, racism, the Holocaust, and nuclear genocide. The poem is a nationalistic poem. It is a cry for validation.
Countries are like people. I believe change can be accelerated through more compliments and praises. Compliments and praises on what China is doing right for its people. Pressure only raise shields and make China feel and act more isolated, behave more brutal to its own people so it may preserve order. More of its hard-gained progress in freedom and openness will be lost for security and stability. The minute we demand conditions on China for its “privilege” of hosting the Olympics, we have effectively stifled our most powerful ability to communicate with China to affect positive change for all of our future generations. When was good behavior ever the basis for hosting the Olympics? Wasn’t the Olympics for world peace and human achievements? When did it become a forum for historical injustices? We damage the image of the Olympics and we lose this great channel of human communication.
In short, here are two logical equivalents:
* If China disrespects human rights, then I will not respect China. (Criticizing)
* If I respect China, then China will respect human rights. (Complimenting)
If you believe in the first statement, as most “Westernized” people do, then you must logically (contra-positive) also believe in the second statement. Why is it so hard to see this?
Mao’s Communism. China after the fall of the Manchu dynasty, the age of war lords, Japanese Imperialism, World War II and the civil war with the Nationalists was left bankrupt in both resources and capital. Mao’s idealism was the only thing that got China unified into one coherent engine towards modernization. Millions of lives were lost, but China emerged from this crucible of fire a functional system. Communism, brutal as it was, was just the tool to elevate a country and its people from absolute destitute. I doubt that democracy would work in a country of uneducated peasants who came from generations of abject poverty and violence. Even Karl Marx knew better to move to industrialized England to start his ideas. Communism practiced by Lenin, Stalin, and later Mao was not true communism envisioned by Marx. But the ideas of communism can elevate the most impoverished, uneducated population into action and into progress.
I have absolute respect for the Chinese people in overcoming their generations of suffering. When Deng XiaoPing inherited China, many Chinese were still uneducated, but more were gaining freedom from starvation. Mao’s idealism had already achieved its goals. Deng, was a great leader not because his stature, but because of his ability to deliver his people to the next level of security from poverty and famine. He gradually allowed certain urban areas to experiment with capitalism. Since Communism legitimized Deng’s powers, he could not risk losing stability and order by openly denouncing Communism (which was just a tool used to jumpstart a bankrupt country). Capitalism and industrialization created prosperity for the Chinese and liberated them perpetual suffering. A similar pattern from nothingness to prosperity can be seen in Israel. Like China, Israel is also repressive, but the US is it’s #1… long story here.
All this may sound like denial: denial of what is currently happening within China; denial of the injustices faced by the Chinese Tibetan race; and denial of censorships and human rights abuses. Although the injustices and government control in America is not as severe as those in China, we are the most racist, most contradicting, most arrogant country on the planet. A lot has to do with our history, but much has to do with the nature of our diversity, which can be our most enduring strength as well as our most destructive weakness. We are a relatively stable country with occasional race riots, but our stability is a direct result of our economy. If quadrupling our population doesn’t relate, let’s divide your income by four and then I am not so sure about the stability assertion. Despite a highly-educated population, with salaries cut in four, the middle class will no longer exist. What would happen to central government control? National security? The right to speak one’s mind? Race relations? Social order? Immigration is already a lit fuse in our slowing economy.
Let’s discuss the issue of centralized power and its abuses on individual freedoms. The American system of government was created when America was relatively agrarian. Separation of powers between a central government and the states along with the balance of powers in each of their respective branches of governments was an enlightened attempt to limit any entity from gathering too much power. Our system was established to limit centralized power.
As we industrialized into the Nineteenth Century, and as factory labor cannot effectively compete with slave labor, state powers gradually gave way to centralized power as was best illustrated in the victory of the Union over the Confederacy. Fast forward one more century. The Great Depression further consolidated the powers of the central government. Two World Wars and a Cold War left America the sole world superpower. Without an amendment to the Constitution, the Federal Income Tax was here to stay. This is not a complaint. Just an attempt to explain a pattern and where we may be heading.
If power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, why do we, as voters, vest so much power in one entity, our central government? Or is it too late for us to control this overgrown beast? We are a global superpower. A SUPERPOWER fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we say that the citizens, the voters of America control all this POWER, then the citizens of America are SUPER corrupt and have blood on their hands. Also as taxpayers, we are sponsoring murder.
But what about the cruelties of China against its own people? A little self-reflection may help. We are human. So are governments. No denial, just reality. Powerful central governments are here to stay. China is already there. America is heading there. Improve relations between these to powerful countries, and hope for a better future for our kids. Share experiences as friends and create history together. Communicate and validate each other’s successes and help each when things get tough (like sustainable growth, renewable energy, controlling disease epidemics, and managing climate change).
With commerce and trade (the good aspects of globalization) China and the US are developing a shared history, a shared understanding, a shared culture, and a shared respect for one another, not as adversarial superpowers, but as co-inhabitants of an ever shrinking planet. We need to communicate as mutual partners for the betterment of our future generations. This is what I am hoping for. This is the big picture. It is not simple and all these words cannot capture this dream.
May 4, 2008 at 12:30 am
And as for the Mormon Church in Texas. Child abuse is horrendous and abominable. What is also bad (if not worse) is if we become the instrument of the government in believing in the validity of the crime without first having a fair and impartial trial by jury. Our Constitution demands the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. No one has yet been convicted by a fact-finding jury.
So far, all that we’ve heard in the news were allegations. Can these people ever get a fair and impartial trial by jury now? It seems many have already formed their judgments before the trial even began. We have become so confident that the government has gotten it right and that all allegations that come out are facts.
The word “polygamy” raises all sorts of alarms and biases. Mainstream Americans with 50% divorce rate practice serial polygamy; divorce this one to marry the next one in series. It is against moral code if it is not in serial. I don’t endorse either form of polygamy, but systemic contradictions are interesting.
Whether or not we have a verdict, I truly do not want to lose our system of justice to the power of the government and media speculations and prejudices. This just show the increasing power of government and it ability to sway the “will of the people”. Equal protection under the law is not equal if you are different or made to appear different. Here, it is the “polygamists”. Later, it may be the “homosexuals”, the immigrant who can’t speak perfect English, and the engineer “spy” from China. If you are different, you must be guilty. The media will not give you the chance to defend your presumption of innocence.
If it is later found that you were always innocent, then you are free to go. However, your life and wallet will forever be changed. Your ability to land a job will be compromised. This is American justice not according to the Constitution, but according to mass media. This is equal protection under the law. All are guilty until proven innocent.
Freedom of religion is not defensible in the case of human rights violations. It never should be. Under a system of theocracy, were human rights violated in Tibet before Chinese rule? What is it to prevent Tibet from treating their people differently if they were to gain independence? How would it affect China and its attempt to hold itself together as a country with Muslim separatists in Xianjing, native Formosan in Taiwan, and Westernized Chinese in Hong Kong? If racial separatism is the goal, what goes around will come around. And I wonder which country has the most diversity? We are lucky that our economy glues everyone together.
If we are so in love with spiritually, why are we so quick to demonize the Mormons? Human nature is here to stay. The pursuit of happiness is to understand human nature and channel its abilities to do good.
Whether these Mormon men and women turn out to be completely innocent or not, the kids have suffered and will suffer. I just hope the government is doing the right thing to these people and their families.
As I said, we are moving closer to becoming authoritarian and yet we criticize China for its contradictions. In the meantime, China is shedding Communism and totalitarianism for capitalism and democracy as it develops its large educated middle class. I hope this is not the only way we will meet and see eye-to-eye as civilizations, us going down, China moving up. We may not even need to hypothetically swap populations to see what will happen. The pendulums were always in motion.
May 4, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Wow, Cowboy. You, too, are writing books here. I am not so ashame of long-winded essays now that you are here.
Cowboy, I will answer your population bit. But you should take mine too. I posted them previously. I will respond to some of your points while skipping others due to length. Wouldn’t want to bore the rest of the readers here.
1. Population hypothesis: the system created for the u>s. can accomodate the Chiense population but it has to be done over time and not overnight. If a billion people appears tomorrow, there wil not be enough houses. But can you iamgine a billion people here? I can. But no country on earth can cope with that 1 bln. people over night.
2. China’s diversity: Beijing is in denial. The slogan: One Nation One Voice is presumptous and counter-productive. I propose a stronger central government with more regional ones. Learn from the U.S.’s system. We have federal and state laws. Texas has death penalty applied liberally. California has death penalty but rarely applied. No one-size-fits-all system can ssutain the land mass and population of China. Time to admit and fix it. Or youw ill have impeeding corruptions in the regional gov.’s and the endless cycle of purging bad bureaucrats.
3. Time to say the Mao’s branch of Marxism is wrong. Communism is dead, or at least, unsustainable. Time to declare that the Cultural Revoltion years were the dumbest self-inflicting wound the central government had done to its people. Apologize to those affected, Compensate them to the best ability then move forward. Call it the 2nd Leap Forward, but this time, install checks and balances to keep idiots from embezelling national treasures. To do that effectively, China should:
5. Install a limited freedom of speech. The right to whistle blow your government is best device against corruption. I thought the U.S. would have a strong system like this after Enron but I was wrong.
6. What’s China interest in Tibet? It is a piece of land spanning a fraction to the total land mass Beijing controls. What does China has to gain but a speck of monks who wish to havbe no school and return to the idiotic days? Install autonomy government in controversial places like it has now in Hong Kong. Let the region sort itself out. At the same time make economic incentives for Tibet to join China, just like other states joining the U.S. union.
* * *
Now, you know what I think of your argument, Cowboy? You examined the U.S. but not so thoroughly like you thought you did. You forgot the judicial branch, which I serve. We overturned the White House and COngress unermous time. See Hamdan v. Rumsfeld.
* * *
Polygamy violates the current law: One man, one woman. You can marry another, but you have to divorce one. It prevents all sort of tax fraud. It serves as a balance to the wishes of the feminist movement. It demands that Man keeps their words to Woman. What you think of polygamy, you cannot say they broke the law, let them get away with it. It might be a victim-less crime, but change the law if you disagree. Don’t provide covers for those breaking it because others will demand doing so. Judicial system is VERY VERY fair on equal protection and equal rights. I don’t have to be a prophet to say murders would demand to go free too.
* * *
The Big Brother thing you speak of, happens in the last 8 years, and is the knee-jerk reaction to the 9/11 event. I was not far from New York at the time. Since you so fond about human nature, why do you thiink the Americans are so ready to cede their rights and liberty after that day? Here’s a hint: Safety, derived from fear, comes first.
* * *
I think the gay movement made great strides in the recent years. They still have a long way ahead. But believe me, I want to see them succeed. There is a famous poem by a German writer, about the Nazi, posted here, that reflects your sentiment about letting the government taking away personal liberties. I recommend you and everyone else here peruse it. Again, push for the change law if you disagree with it. You are entitle to that recourse, at the very least.
* * *
We are not coming any closer to authoritarian than we ever were. Remmeber the Sedition Act passed last century to curb all protest agains the government? That was us being China. Since then, name one? USA Patriot Act? Really? Dropping shoes at the airport is comparable to getting jailed for speaking up? Here’s one headline for you, from Der Spiegel’s English version. Here’s the juicy part:
I will leave you with an anecdote: My uncle joked the other day in a hand-written letter, “You know freedom will come when you can Goggle Fallen Gong.”
The sad part, my aunt smuggled out of the country to deliver to me. He did not trust the public mail system from snooping the letter. When I visit China last month, the truth stopped being funny.
May 4, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Oh, I forgot to add this to my respond to Cowboy.
My answer to the assertion that the U.S. is “most racist, most contradicting, most arrogant country on the planet,” is that Cowboy should travel more. As a Chinese immigrant, now a U.S. citizen, I take great offense in this comment. It is a false allegation.
The U.S., by far, has the most open-minded immigration policy in the world. The population is one of the highly diverse places, if not the most. China can’t even begin to come close.
The rate of assimilation is much extremely high,, so much that the French government and others in the Euro-Union wanting to learn so that they can accommodate the rising Muslim population. That is because of the American’s long-standing view of personal liberty.
If you want a link to that, I will dig it up from a respected, well reputed journal.
May 4, 2008 at 11:52 pm
The responses here have been amazing and worth reading. Keep up the good work guys!
May 5, 2008 at 4:26 am
We need people like Nightingale to defend our freedoms, domestic and abroad. Otherwise, I would not have the freedom to make outrageous statements about the US. As for my statement about the US being the “most racist, most contradicting, most arrogant country on the planet,” I am comparing us to no other system but the system that my Founding Fathers established and promised.
Yes, after 9/11, Americans were “so ready to cede [our] rights and liberty… for safety, derived from fear.” Fear is human nature. Fear is also a wonderful instrument for those in power. Do you think the people in control don’t understand the power of fear?
And if we just look at the government responses following 9/11 we are missing the bigger picture, the pattern of government amassing powers is not unlike that espoused by Thomas Hobbes, three centuries earlier.
Since you work in the Judicial Branch, whether it is state or federal, I do not doubt that you understand the opposite effects of Hobbes’ ideas on the founding principles of our system: separation of powers, balance of powers. If the Constitution is too general for interpretation, re-examine Hamilton’s Federalist Papers and see why I made that “greatly offensive” remark about our existing state of affairs between people and government in the US.
I do not doubt that you do an excellent job at the Judicial system, especially if you sincerely believe that our Judiciary is “VERY VERY fair on equal protection and equal rights.” If only everyone in our government follows through with this level of fervor, I think folks like me would live in corn syrup diabetic bliss and have nothing to do but find faults in the junk that I buy from Walmart.
As for my feelings about China, if I devotedly believe every word of what my government tells me about China, I would not be so friendly in my remarks about China either. Being neither an expert in human nature nor in world history, I am however certain of one thing. There is no such thing as moral absolutism.
Moral absolutism typifies the idealism of youth. But as we grow older and deal with more people, especially with people who are not like ourselves, we realize that there are no absolutes. To exact an absolute standard on others is not only juvenile but arrogant. And we know what happens to those who immerse themselves in hubris.
Religious doctrines may disagree with this observation of moral relativism, but it does not require an Einstein to discover what is real is relative to the observer.
Based on what you wrote, Nightingale, I don’t believe your ancestry came from China because of political repression. If I may guess, was it for economic reasons, to cross the oceans in order to pursue the “American Dream”? Whether or not this was the case, how would you feel if your salary were cut by four? Will you need an even stronger government to keep America secure? Bear in mind rising food prices (food riots in Haiti and an estimated 100 million people in all corners of the world are already in famine). Hmmm… I don’t see any food riots in China… Maybe the Chinese government is censoring this information.
Also, don’t forget that not all races in the US had the Asian immigrant experience. The American Dream for you was an American Nightmare for many others who were conquered, annihilated, enslaved. And their legacies live to this day. To say that we have corrected our system by allowing Indian Casinos to flourish in autonomous reservations is to say that you’ve never visited an Indian reservation and talked to the ordinary folks in those reservations. To say that the Japanese Americans were fairly compensated for their internment during WWII is to promote a fallacy, a slippery slope fallacy. Well, I guess it is OK to deny alleged terrorists habeas corpus as long as we compensate the ones we later cannot prove to be guilty. I can see how our Justice department is “VERY VERY fair on equal protection and equal rights.” And the Latinos and blacks and prison population… Justice is blind and will eventually come around to apologize and compensate the victims of the system. Isn’t this, “sin now and repent later?” If it can happen to them, what prevents it from happening to anyone?
Yes, Affirmative Action has addressed many of these past injustices. Ask yourself: at who’s expense? As an Asian, did Affirmative Action ever affect you and your American Dream? Were you ever denied a position despite your qualifications? Do you see any smart and patriotic Asians in the top echelons of government, of corporations? Asian Americans have pretty much been around since the Gold Rush, but I don’t see you represented anywhere other than in martial arts movies, cooking shows, and in technology departments. The few who are top engineers and who work for government defense contractors have already been excommunicated. Is this the Harvard educated Asian American experience your ancestry wanted? I can’t help but repeat: our justice department is “VERY VERY fair on equal protection and equal rights.” How about equal opportunity under the law? I think you are awesome because whereas most people miss the forest for the trees, you miss the trees for the forest. You see problems far away, but not close to home. The ruling class is still the ruling class, whether it is here in America or there in China.
Also, the slight hint that this cowboy has an ulterior motive to want China to remain repressive and therefore not be able to meet First World standards is interesting. Let me confess… I really work for the US government with the mission to pacify dissents against China so China remains in the dark age and the US remains the world’s only superpower. LOL. I guess only one of us actually works for the US government.
In short, the message is simple and I will rephrase it: Here are two logical equivalents:
* If China does not respect human rights, then the West will not respect China. (This is what’s happening now. Doing this will immediately satisfy the itch of hubris.)
* If the West respects China, then China will respect human rights. (I hope we have the wisdom to see that this is also true, but it takes more patience.)
I agree that we “see eye to eye on many issues’ theories. But our differences are [indeed] in the applications.” I am keeping this one short and simple for easier digestion.
May 5, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Okay, just so you know, I wrote a lengthy response but deleted it because it went nowhere new. So here is 2nd attempt:
The U.S. was right, along with the European countries, in their demands of China. Those demands are not unreasonable. Install Tibet what it has in Hong Kong. Start thinking about Darfur and most recently, Zimbabwe.
The poem at the beginning of this page, the more I think of it, the more whinny it reads. Namby-pampy. If this is a mainstream Chinese thinking, then China sounds a lot like Vietnam in the 80s. All of the failures of Communism in VN was to blamed on the Evil American. Hanoi regime could not govern. They knew how to fight but could not lead.
Look, it is easy, sitting from the outside, and play armchair judge on cases. I’ve read up on the Sean Bell case. Looks not fair, but pour over the transcripts and arguments and you can see the beauty in the judicial system: the plaintiff can retake the case up to the higher court and argue. Such is called check and balance. If I did not think it is fair, then I would not say it here with a straight face. You can argue that some lawyers are better than others and therefore out of reach for many, I agree. We just can’t change the economics of supplies and demands that way. Though the Court did force highly paid lawyers to take up free cases. While working as a corp. lawyer, my state court pulled me back into a case that had nothing to do with finance or mergers. But because I had background in criminal defense so I had no choice but to obey the court order or risk jail time for contempt. Such concept is unheard of to my counterparts in China.
* * *
I don’t know the real reason my parents left. Maybe for me to have better education. I have came a long way and now when I came back to my origin, I am disgusted at what I saw.
* * *
About the Gitmo cases, as I wrote before, I have complete faith in the representatives for the defendants. One of them is Commander Swift, who spoke out loud and clear against even to have Gitmo tribunals. I also said the Judiical branch made big headways against the White House in recent years. Long road ahead, indeed, but progress should be known.
* * *
I will not deny the income gap between the CEO of a company and the janitor of that company. I even know the statistics. Do you? What I can tell you is that the side effect to capitalism is very very unfair but you placed the U.S. on the dif. scale than China. Every First World country has to deal with this. Japan recently went through the motion. China right now is having the very problem you described. In fact, the wall of Communism is falling fast for those who once lived under the promise of equal wage equal wealth agenda promoted by Mao. Think about that. To live through Mao, then Deng, and now under Hu, is to be confused at the country’s direction. Are we capitalist or are we communist? The younglings can say, Ma and Grandma, haven’t you heard? Communism died. Mom: So what’s with the Revolution red hanging in the downtown palaces? Daughter: Oh, just to fool folks like you. The new national color is now Green, as in Greenbacks. How disheartening, I heard this from my aunt who spent her life growing bananas.
She won’t be around long enough for the national wealth to reach her. The pollution in nearby streams, which she knew and the town did petition but got no response, will slowly kill her.
May 6, 2008 at 12:35 am
Well my children. Here it is.
We ALL have a terminal Illness called DEATH.
Yet we still argue and fight
There was once a man called SETH
Who thought it was our God given right
To cry out to others
When we are in stress
He was right.
Quit your bitching!
Get on with life.
We ALL have a terminal illness called DEATH
Enjoy it while you CAN
RESPECT EACH OTHERS NEEDS.
DAD
May 6, 2008 at 2:21 am
I was wondering where the adversarial tone in your writing was coming from. You sounded more like a divorce lawyer, demanding a split between two couples who had a long and intimate relationship for many centuries before the West took interest in Tibet.
Maybe all that these couples need are some dialog and counseling. In fact, this is what they are doing right now.
Granted China and Tibet is not the most functional of marriages, the West should mind its own business and worry about what is happening in its own households. What happens in the bedroom of another family is none of our tax paying business.
But you warn: “China is Nazi Germany” and we have to do something about it before it is too late. Just because they don’t have habeas corpus does not mean that they will go to hell like the Nazis. Look at us. We can do whatever we want to the foreign captives; by having dogs snap at their dangles while they’re standing and wired like Christmas trees. And we are still living Free and pursuing Happiness $$$.
Just because China took over Tibet and tried erasing their cultural identity also does not mean that they will go to hell like the Nazis. Look at us again. We did in fact wipe out many Native American nations and their cultural identities. What do we have now? Casinos. The neon lights, strip clubs, and entertainment sure don’t look like hell to me. Maybe the hell is in the prevalence of alcoholism and wide-spread depression in these reservations. But hey, nothing like gambling and alcohol to generate Happiness $$$.
The last time I checked, most Han Chinese are Buddhists. But I haven’t seen many Americans practicing Native American paganism and dancing around camp fires on Sundays with turkey feathers sticking out from their hats.
I guess, Tibetan culture is live and well not only in Tibet, but in the spirit and soul of China. This is what happens when couples have a long and intimate relationship for many centuries. When we hear Shaolin, we think not of Tibet but of China. This is because China is Tibet and Tibet is China.
If China is so intent on killing the Tibetan Culture, China should have censored the Monkey King’s Journey to the West since day one of their “invasion” of Tibet. Ask that “Youngling” of yours if s/he knows who the Monkey King is. Ma and Grandma would definitely know. Even this Westerner knows. Maybe the Chinese culture is the Tibetan Culture. Maybe they are just one family, one household, one people.
I understand your confusion in your example with the “Youngling” and her Ma and Grandma. Communism with the uppercase “C” is not the same as communism with the lowercase “c”. Since you are a lawyer, you must have an understanding of corporate branding. You cannot confuse “Mountain Dew” with mountain dew. China brands their system Communism. Yes, it had communistic roots, but it is not communism. Just like Mountain Dew was never mountain dew, Communism was never communism. It is more of a tool of the Chinese people for the Chinese people to get the Chinese people out of abject destitution and into prosperity. Did Communism work? Sure it did. The next test for Communism was could it adapt to the needs of the Chinese people. Did it adapt? Sure it did. Look at China’s wealth today. I don’t see any food riots in a land with 1,300,000,000 mouths to feed while the world experiences global food shortages.
If Mountain Dew was a bad example, let’s take a more simple analogy. Your misunderstanding is in confusing the Democratic Party for being democratic or the Republican Party for being republican or the Independent Party for being independent. You see, there is really no false advertisement here, unless you insist that Communism is communism and Mountain Dew is mountain dew.
As for your other premise: that China does not have a judicial system similar to ours and is therefore worthy of ridicule. Who’s to say that our system is THE BEST (without a touch of hubris here)? If we are in fact THE BEST, does that give us the moral high ground to “demand” others to accept our ways or else? If we are THE BEST, why is it that many systems are different from our system? Could it be that different households have different family backgrounds and therefore different needs?
Tibet is also no Hong Kong. Hong Kong didn’t become a democracy until late in 1996, a few months before they were returned back to China. Prior to that, it was a commonwealth of the UK, or a colony controlled by a foreign autocracy. Under British rule, did it ever occur to you that the Chinese in Hong Kong were second citizens under the law? Would you venture to guess that the Chinese did not get treated like the Brits, but were kept subservient due to a wealthy economy? Guess what China is doing right now? Generating wealth for ALL its citizens and the citizens of the world by allowing its people to unleash their productivity.
You are entitled to believe that the best way to address the issue of Tibet is to ignore the historical social contract of China and impose the will of the West. If justice is anything, I know that what goes around will eventually come around. Split up someone else’s family and you will effectively pull the rug out from under your own family, maybe not for this generation, but for your kids’ generations. (They will be choosing to marry from people with divorced parents.) Is that the world we want in the future?
China and America have already begun a serious dating relationship if you haven’t already noticed the many “Made in China” labels on the products we buy and the clothes we wear. We should thank China for keeping our inflation numbers in check.
When couples co-inhabit, both parties become more like the other. America is becoming more like China and China is becoming more like America. This is what’s happening right now in more ways than one. Otherwise, why would this cowboy write all these “books” in defense of China and why would you refute with equal devotion to the opposite?
The “whining” of the Chinese poet is reflective of the strong undercurrent of nationalism that is being stirred in the hearts of the Chinese people. Maybe you haven’t lived long enough in the last Century to have experienced the destructive powers of nationalism, but you sound like you have the enthusiasm and fervor to bring change to the world for the better. I know that you understand the need to protect individuals from governments. I also hope that you understand that change is best made not by will and brute force but by affecting the hearts and minds of those who want validation and a better future for us all.
May 6, 2008 at 2:27 am
Moose, on 29 April, said “Tomorrow, Tibet will be better than today.” True, it will be better for the majority Han people whose central government has systematically destroyed Tibetan culture and society and made Tibetans a minority in their land.
I reject the relativist view presented by Cowboy that no person can criticize another country. But I wholeheartedly support the view that we should not criticize from a supposedly superior position. I also wholeheartedly support the view that we need to dispense with injustices within our own country. But in a globalized world we are truly neighbors who can peer in each other’s backyards and see, and comment on, what needs cleaning. We should then be receptive to our neighbors’ suggestions. Then maybe both yards will begin to tidy up more.
May 6, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Oh my god, I hear you cried of me pairing Beijing to Nazism and ignoring the American exceptional-ism of Gitmo.
First thing first, I detest being misquoted. I never said “China is Nazi Germany.” That poem “When they came for me…” is not to subject Nazism on the same level with Beijing’s current situation. They are both insidious but in their dif. ways.
Secondly, how can you, Cowboy, defend the practice of Internet censorships? Now, I would never advocating for a military invasion of any kind or size. I have no stomach for an Iraq of China. What China could do, and Chinese peopel could do too, is a little self-introspection. We are cleaning up the messes of Gitmo. Hamdan v Rumsfeld was a big step in that direction. You have military commanders advocating for the shutting down of Gitmo and move the prisoners to the Navy brigs. Now I know you love to point out that Gitmo is an atrocity. I don’t have first hand knowledge or enough third-hand evidences to condemn it as an Auschwitz of our time. And neither do you. New documentaries are coming to shed lights on this. “Taxi to the Dark side,” “Standard Operating Procedures” are leading the way. But you have to wonder, these are American/Western film makers, not Chinese. We are the first to check our own governments. We believe in that right because we live and breath that spirit. I have problem with people citing Orwell’s 1984—a favorite book for those who love to lambaste America. Fine. Your choice. Silly me for believing in the check and balance system.
On the rice topic, I love you for pointing out the obvious that China does not have a food riot. China is not supposed to have one. It is unimaginable to see China having a rice problem. Then, as me being impolite here, “we would be FUCKED!” Do you know that rice is the symbol of self-reliance for every Asian country? “We can lack any thing but let there not be rice,” is the attitude of every country. But the fact that China refused to export the same level of rice this year as many years before is interesting. One, it hides the fact that China is having some rice shortage of its own. Two, the government isn’t about to announce it because it would de-legitimize the central government. And your point about Communism v. communism, it is COMMUNISM (not shouting here). I said it is Mao’s branch of communism. If you insist it as Mao’s Communism, fine. Split me the differences. I maybe a lawyer, but I don’t think I have as much fun parsing words as you.
If you think the “Made in China” is the symbol of a marriage, you are being fooled. I have no penchant for China being the exclusive supplier of goods for the America market. If CHinese is so self-righteous about it, why don’t they just drop the entire system to India. I am sure India would love to take the windfall. At the same time it is not like the Made in China label gave China any prestige. In fact, many Asians told me that they shunned Chinese products for not having high quality and preferred Japanese-made products. Ever run a Soviet-made car? How about a Chinese-made car?
I was horrified at the nationalism of post-9/11. I am even more horrified at the Chinese one. The scale is much bigger. So much that the Chinese government had to temper it. Anti-Carrefour websites suddenly vanished. Now how did that happen? Call it the Great Firewall of China. And the other countries nearby are learning the Chinese way of suppressing information. Doesn’t that depress you? Beijing is increasingly manipulative of its people. The last time the American government did that, we went to war with Iraq thinking there was WMD. Before that, we thought Vietnam fired at our ships in the Gulf of Tonkin.
Two wrongs should not make a right. Whatever you think of America, you have got to be kidding if you think America is sinking to China’s level.
My uncle’s example still stand. He still can’t Google “Falun Gong.” If we are worse than anything, we cannot be worse than that.
May 7, 2008 at 2:27 am
You are a smart, articulate, and passionate intellectual, Nightingale. I enjoyed our exchanges the last few days. We share different viewpoints about how to deal with China; and although I disagree with some of your viewpoints, I do understand them. I also agree with many of your thoughts and feelings about censorship and individual rights. I don’t think we will correspond with this level of freedom if we were censored or made to feel afraid about the consequences of our words. I thank Lifeinmotion for providing this medium for our discussions.
It’s interesting that you mentioned 9/11… When you have the time, please take a look at this… (But please don’t watch this at work, as I don’t want you to lose your job or get in trouble with your employer’s “firewall” and Internet filters).
I am curious as to what you think from a philosophic, moralistic, and intellectual perspective…
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9127706080717077488
I understand that this may be offensive, and if it is, please understand that this can also be taken purely from an entertainment standpoint. I nonetheless look forward to reading about your thoughts and feelings on the matter after you’re done watching this.
Knowing you, here is the 9/11 Commission report that you may want to browse through too if you found the video to be disturbing:
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf
Please also don’t feel compelled to respond if you feel that it may not be appropriate to do so. I also understand it if you cannot fully disclose your thoughts on the matter. Whatever that you can share, I have faith that it will be your genuine thoughts and feelings.
May 7, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Cowboy, you certainly know how to square dance around me. Just when I thought I closed my take on the China-Tibet subject, you came back and redirected the conversation to 9/11. Normally, I would entertain the video’s paranoia and then cast it aside at the end of the day, but you certainly know your partner, being such a dancer you are. Hence, I must reply.
One thing, I am back in the States. There are much work to be done but I am ahead. The firm hired those they trust and they trust those they hired.
* * *
What I think of this shockumentary is that it did not pass muster as a reasonable doubt. It doesn’t account for why Bin Laden admitting to be involved in the planning. Furthermore, it cashed in the public paranoia that came uniquely after the death of JFK. Skeptics have to prove beyond reasonable doubt and they have failed, on the lunar landing, the sniper of JFK, the UFO, the Area-51. Jim Marrs, one of the talking heads in this video, spent his life chasing UFOs and “exposing the truth.” If someone is that predisposed to whatever they see, then what can we do when they really believe it? This is why witnesses in a criminal court trial no longer has the same value as DNA or any concrete evidences. A lot can affect our memory. What we remember is truly up for reshaping each time we talked about it with someone else. Witnesses are not very reliable and could easily be put in questions by asking for their motives. Reasonable doubt is there. Jim Marrs is an UFo “journalist.”
And I love how the film maker amped up these talking heads’ occupations or previous occupations. I have friends working for the NY Times and the Boston Globe, they would be shocked to read about this “journalist.”
That’s my thought for now. But I fear the admin will delete this thread because it gets off topic.
* * *
On to the video. I broke my responses to the segments that they presented. And I will try to argue within the context of the video and in a form of a mock trial.
Part 1: The pod thing
Now, what I noticed about the talking heads in the videos, they form a pattern. One, they belong in some group of “_____ for 9/11 Truths.” Be it pilots, professors, former military personnels
In my view, the case is weak for the lack of technical analysts. No physicist or a chemist in sight. Not an aerostructure engineer, not an air-traffic controller to bolster the case? The film maker relied on ethos and pathos to compel the jury. How ethos? Americans love their military men. They are the heroes: The major and the colonel in the film. But they are no expert in their topic. In fact, if I am on the other side, these two would not survive cross examination.
Simply, I would ask, “Are you an engineer?” No? “Your analysis derived from your field of experience, right, sir? Tell me, have you done work on a jetliner at say, Boeing or Hawkers Beechcraft?” No.
Onto the pilots. “You are licensed to fly, correct?” Yes. “You are trained in physics or